Curse

Mercyful Fate · Feb 18, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

This has been something that I've complained about in the past, countless times, to Officers and Members alike. It recently came up again in a post I made to my most current Officers as well as in a discussion with an Officer, who reminded me "I thought you were going to post at Guru..." and while I sit here at work, bored out of my mind, I typed a blog entry about it at my personal blog for my guild... and felt that I should quit being lazy and post it here too in hopes that I may not be the only Guild Leader that has this resentment for the dreaded Demoted by line. To save the "I can't believe you wasted 5 minutes of my life by posting that." If you don't want to read about a complaint about somethiing which would most likely not qualify on a list of Guild Wars Players Top 100 Complaints about the games, then don't read this.

Quote:

One of the things that has irked me the most in Guild Wars is when I have demote an Officer.

There are a few issues I have with this. Firstly, the Officers do not have the option to step down. Let’s pretend I’m an Officer, I’ve completed 4 years of college, I have my daughter, I live on my own, and I am an Officer in a guild. Doesn’t have to be ASY, but one where I can get away with being away a few days here or there, nothing incredibly repeatitve, and I decide to goto Graduate School. My time is cut even more so and I know that I lack the time to function as an Officer in the guild I’m in. I should have the ability to not just quit the guild, but also step down as an Officer and move myself back onto the Members portion of the guild membership list, shouldn’t I?

Unfortunately that option is non-existent. And if it did exist, the game would likely print “Stepped Down as Officer” or something like that. Which leaves no reason why the Officer stepped down. Because the Leader said “Step Down and save face or be demoted.” Or maybe “I lack the time to uphold my duties as Officer.” Or what about “I don’t want to perform the duties I am responsible for as an Officer of this guild.” - no one knows. And that makes some people jump to conclusions, and the pessimists out there always look for the worse case scenario and then the rumor mill starts churning, and while that may not be a problem in ASY, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t happen elsewhere.

Now to my second rant, aside from there being no “Step Down” option, it requires little ol’ me to demote the Officer back into membership and prints this beautiful Demoted by King Mercyful Fate line onto the little info popup when you mouse over their name. It replaces the Promoted by King Mercyful Fate line and leaves this bit of information that I feel reaks of negative connotation. Again, no reasons why the demotion took place, just shows that it did. Now, Toby, who did step down for personal reasons enjoyed having the line there. Now Toby is a self-proclaimed arse, so I agreed he could keep the line, since I am stuck having to kick Officers that have stepped down and reinvite them to the guild as my only option to not have them wearing this “Scarlett Letter” for the service they did to the guild which has not necessarily entirely ended, but the additional task requirements have... Is this how I should be forced to treat my former Officers? In my not so humble opinion, of course it’s not! It’s absurd!

I am typically on the side of ArenaNet’s decision making and priority implementation of new ideas and game modifications, and can even understand why they nerf builds, farming areas, etc to keep the various campaigns challenging, making players find new builds, and keep gamers interested in the game. I am all for that. I may be slightly miffed that I spent time power levelling a Ritualist to solo farm Underworld for Ectos for possible Necromancer Obsidian armor, only to be a day late because ArenaNet nerfed the build, which ultimately wasted my time when I could have been working on another character I am more fond of, but I fully understand and am mature enough to respect why they did it. I cannot understand why the game (at this time) is designed to leave this silly Demoted by King Mercyful Fate line on my former Officers that may simply not want the burden of leadership on their shoulders anymore for whatever their reasons may be.

The most recent demotions have not been booted and reinvited at this time, because I am planning to make this arguement at GuildWarsGuru.com in hopes that Gaile Gray, Andrew Patrick, or someone from the Community Relations team at ArenaNet may take notice or even respond to my gripes about this relatively meager (on the large spectrum of bugs, patches, implementations etc. updates) issue that I see in the game and hope that one day they (the programming and design team of ArenaNet) can modify in a manner where the Demoted by line can be removed and/or have a “reason” portion added. Preferably both, where either a reason can be added or the line be removed entirely since I’m sure some Guild Leader out there isn’t like me where they just want to nuke the line all together, and I’m sure in some instances a reason for demotion that is public to the guild may be warranted, however, that has not been the case yet in The Vanguard of Asylum.

Anyway, I’m done with my rant.

Long Live The Vanguard of Asylum!

Respectfully and with love,

-MF

That in the blockquote is a carbon copy from my blog at my guild's website. Now many of you may say quit complaining because you'd rather have ArenaNet making Sunspear Spearmarshal attainable or breaking the elite capping titles into a campaign oriented system, or heck, I'd love to see an in-game mailing system and auction house. But while this is a meager complaint/change compared to others, my guild's "mini-community" in the game's large community isn't just a pooling location for party members for a 5man FoW run or a HA team, it's a community of friends to enrich their social skills, learn responsibility and management skills on an unofficial level, and ultimately better themselves as people.

Now I'm sure (allow me to stereotype, I'm human therefore, I'm fallible) some 14 year olds may laugh at that, but as a single father, long time gamer, and guild leader of a majority 18+ guild with an average age of 28 or so, we know how basic people skills, whether it be manager-based, social, etc. can effect you in life, and I find this Demoted by line to be demoralizing to a point. Now, not everyone (ie: Toby, or heck, the rest of my now resigned Officers over the last year and a half) may have been hurt seeing that line, I don't know that for a fact because I can't read minds and Freud taught us all about self-defense mechanisms, so unless someone tells me, I cannot know for sure. Regardless, I see no point into labeling someone with Demoted by for the rest of their time in the guild, unless of course, they leave and come back to erase it. It doesn't make sense to me.

Criticism is of course welcome, or I wouldn't have posted this in such a publicized and well respected forum for Guild Wars. Personal flames against me are pointless since I'm secure with myself, my guild, and unless you've stated a true comment about either that I don't want known, I shouldn't be bothered.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read and/or reply to this thread and good gaming to everyone!

Respectfully,

-MF

Diddy bow · Feb 18, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

/signed
whats the point in it anyway?

onerabbit · Feb 18, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

/signed..ive wanted this for a while..

CyberMesh0 · Feb 18, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

/signed

I have a one person guild and this still makes sense.

gameshoes3003 · Feb 18, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

/signed
How about there is no "Demoted By So-and-So."
But also I like the "step-down" feature.

Mercyful Fate · Feb 18, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Ideally, there would be no Demoted by line and Officers would have the option to step down with nothing saying "Stepped Down" either.

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond.

-MF

Kool Pajamas · Feb 19, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

/signed

I agree there is no point in that line.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 19, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Mercyful Fate, it's very true.
I was made an officer once. Later, I asked the leader to demote me as I could not fill the requirements. No bad blood, just the right thing to do.
I keep getting tells from other guildies about why he did that and what I did wrong or did we fight! That line of text in the guild window, in the end, created way too much unnecessary drama!

/signed

Dana Hawkeye · Feb 19, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I agree with you Mercyful Fate - It is a 'negativeism' to have the words DEMOTED connected to your name, IMO 'Retired Officer' would be better.

Maybe, demoted/retired Officers could form a 'middle-tier' of lets say Guild NCO's, between Members and Officers. At least that way, their experience of being an Officer or even a Guild Leader (as they sometimes forward on the baton) would be recognised.

/signed

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 19, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

/SIGNED

It's a small thing, but needs changed.

If it wasn't a permanent tag we could live with a single line spam in game chat that is standard in other games. But, permanently marking a guild member with "demoted by..." is socially awkward at best.

Obviously, a close knit guild would have an informed member base via it's web site, Teamspeak/Ventrilo and guild MoTD or chat...so the awkward demoted blurb could be nullified.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Feb 19, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

/signed

no comment except
1) Good argument
2) Great guidl you must be running, keep it up Mercyful

Aegeroth · Feb 19, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

/signed

You should be able to "demote" yourself, in which case it will be a "step down", but when the Guild Leader demotes its an actual demotion. Just so that people who deserve it get it.

Mercyful Fate · Feb 20, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

/SIGNED

It's a small thing, but needs changed.

If it wasn't a permanent tag we could live with a single line spam in game chat that is standard in other games. But, permanently marking a guild member with "demoted by..." is socially awkward at best.

Obviously, a close knit guild would have an informed member base via it's web site, Teamspeak/Ventrilo and guild MoTD or chat...so the awkward demoted blurb could be nullified.

I wouldn't object to a single line of spam saying "Test Officer was Demoted by King Mercyful Fate." or "Test Officer has resigned as a Guild Officer"

As far as informing members goes, some don't always read forums and new members perusing the member list may see a number of Demoted Officers and think there is a problem with this guild, especially since no demotion or promotion dates are present.

I appreciate the replies. Hopefully one day ArenaNet can tweak this for the better.

-MF

tenshi_strife · Feb 20, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

... um i dont want to seem like an ass but imo if you cant stand demoting sumone DONT BE A GUILD LEADER...... really im a guild leader and i know you have to demote some people... but really that is your job... also that display is helpful so that people dont relize later "hey why am i member". really if you do not want to have to play the bad guy sometimes and have to make the tough desicions then dont be a guild leader..... really.

/notsigned....

Alias_X · Feb 20, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

@ the above,
Did you completely miss the point?

/signed

Sofonisba · Feb 20, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

/signed

tenshi, this is not about good/bad/uncertain leadership. It's about a misleading tag in the guild history.

We too have had officers had to "request" to be demoted. Members are not privy to officer discussions like this, nor should they be. Yet, they see this Demoted By and think the worst. Not good for morale.

Tarun · Feb 20, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

/signed

There should be an option to allow a reason to be entered that is only viewable to officers/leaders.

GuildWiki Jamie · Feb 21, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

yes, there should be an option to give reason for all guild management.

kicking people from guild: next time that user logs on "you were kicked from <guild name>, reason: Inactive 1 month."

Promotion & demoting too, but yes the negative connotation must be changed, I have been in the position where I did not want to demote an inactive officer simply because it would list "demoted by... " in their tag. Same too with kicking people, adding a reason to both would really help.

/signed

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 21, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alias_X

@ the above,
Did you completely miss the point?

LOL My guess would be he didn't read the OP's post at all, seems to be a common problem on these forums. Those lovely sniper replies that are oddly inaccurate.

Mercyful Fate · Feb 24, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWiki Jamie

yes, there should be an option to give reason for all guild management.

kicking people from guild: next time that user logs on "you were kicked from <guild name>, reason: Inactive 1 month."

Promotion & demoting too, but yes the negative connotation must be changed, I have been in the position where I did not want to demote an inactive officer simply because it would list "demoted by... " in their tag. Same too with kicking people, adding a reason to both would really help.

/signed

Actually, I didn't go indepth with the Kicking of individuals, but you've brought up a wonderful point. There is no reason listed for the kick, and since I'm a SuperOp in a few IRC channels, I always give the reason when I do, on rare occasion, have to kick someone from the channel.

It should be the same in the guild setting. It allows everyone to see why the kick was performed, and granted you can be eloquent, will save you possible backlash.

In regards to tenshi_strife's comment stating I shouldn't be a guild leader if I can't stand demoting someone. I won't hesitate to demote an Officer that isn't doing their job properly or is acting in a manner that is not acceptable. Nor do I hesitate kicking people from the guild. You should see the last two weeks alone with some of the people that put on a great facade when joining for their trial run, only to find the door hitting them within 24 hours.

My issue lies entirely with having to demote and label individuals as Demoted by for reasons that are not along the lines of improper conduct, insubordination, or abuse of power. If you worked hard for a year in the guild and then lost the time you had to dedicate to the guild for real life reasons, you shouldn't have to wear a Demoted by line on your mouse over information.

If you did read the entire post, you would know that was my point.

Respectfully,

-MF